Spanks for the Comment

March 11, 2012

Okay so to start with hilarious, your alternative, forward thinking views are about as cutting edge today as the hippie movement, oh it is to laugh…Men(white)=violence, racism, all others blameless and victims only…now thats some kind’a radically new philosophy you’ve come up with…

Oh wait what, okay so ya don’t know but I have been honored to have a guy comment one one of my poems in GS Years

I was very excited, I’d never had a negative comment, I mean I always thought fer sure it would come on this site first, but still it was great. I told Lil Mouse first thing. She wasn’t as impressed as I was. Her only comment was, ‘Now play nice’.

Well anyway of course, like with everyone who visits, I went to visit his site…..and that’s about where you entered.  But maybe I should link him up so you can go read it fer yerself before we go any farther.

As you can imagine I had just a little to say to abandonedculture. Here is how my comment started…

‘ac-Your post is very well written and funny but your opinions lack solid intellectual merit and a cohesive interactivity as well as…so many things don’t know where to begin.’

As usual however it wasn’t the beginning I had trouble with, it was the ending, or I guess specifically simply ending. What follows is the rest…

“This next one is going to be hard …..try and imagine a world where children are afforded the same basic rights as adults,” this is just one of your hilarious statements. You think you are being edgy by suggesting this? This has

Natural selection, survival is instinctual. We must be taught to get along

been the mantra of American child rearing pop psychology since I was growing up (and that’s a long time ago now)…Do you think talking out against people using physical discipline against their children is somehow being “not p.c.”?

Let me use that same sentence still “This next one is going to be hard …..try and imagine a world where children are afforded the same basic rights as adults,” What are you trying to say? Have you yourself actually tried to imagine this?? I am assuming (and we know what they say about that word) that you do not actually have children yourself, and forgive me if I am wrong, but let me know what you think after you do.

You seem to be confusing discipline with just plain ol violence…yes yes I know what about reason, what about reasoning with the two year old? You can discuss the many and varied reasons why he should not do…fill in the blank…and if he continues…well time out of course…

We have been doing this since the 80’s, or earlier in some cases; in bigger, more hip cities. So let me pose this question to you…Are young men less violent and out of control than they were say 50 or 60 years ago (during the hey day of white male cultural domination) or more out of control and violent…Don’t bother it’s a rhetorical question

Let’s move on to another piece of your so called “politically incorrect” diatribe “Now imagine a world where ‘black’ slaves were not given the same rights as ‘white’ people. A world where you can buy and own ‘black’ people and treat them as slaves. A world where a husband can beat his wife and that is considered pretty normal and acceptable too. And a world where hitting your kids is so commonplace it is considered a fundamental part of raising children.”  Two specific things 1. these issues have only a tentative link from a logic argument standpoint and so are tenuously tethered at best 2.You have described, in your statement, cultural norms in much of the world in the present day, except for in white American, or western European influenced cultures, the very culture you want to condemn. If you are saying we are bad because this is the way we acted well, okay…But first it’s neither, in this day and age, radically out of step with the main stream to suggest we not beat children (let alone keep slaves), nor is it the point of the gentleman whose position you have taken issue with. The MP is not advocating “violence” against children, but discipline, discipline specific to their cultural parenting style(you’re not suggesting his [mostly Africans] constituents cultural form of parenting is inferior to our[we’ll call it neo-western style] are you?) I mean that might be something I might say but you seem more culturally sensitive than that.

Reasoning with children, once they gain the ability to reason, is preferable to physical discipline. And in most cases, with most children (more often with girls than boys[more often but not always]) reason, discussion even limited sanctions are enough. But in some cases (the opposite of above more often boys than girls) the eventuality of physical corporal punishment must be applied and better for society if it is sooner than later. As a parent it is up to me to decide how, for what measures, and what judicious purposes. Are there bad parents? Yes of course, there have been, are now and will continue to be parents who capriciously beat their children, or who misuse the term discipline, but they can do that without using any physical violence sometime with much more devastating effects.

Which again brings up the question who is this post addressed to, people like me?(though I used to believe as you do when I was logically immature). If that is the case then you are saying that spanking your child, or swatting their hand is violence against children. You are following a long treasured yet now solidly proven misguided theory of “the child knows best”. It’s pop psychology theoretical dogma unsupported by reality. “You can’t hit virtue, reason or good sense into a child any more than you can hit algebra or geography into that child.” Your statement is unsupported by fact, for thousands of years this is the way the human race functioned, we did indeed, and so much more so than now, beat values, morals and even algebra into some children.

I am not making a value statement, just stating fact.

Let me end with this. When I was a boy growing up (a time of strict discipline backed by threat of violence) If a swear word left my mouth when I was, say ten, any adult within earshot could have taken by the ear and dragged me back home to dear ol ma & pa, who would not only spank me for the said offense, but for the embarrassment in the community. Fast forward to today, ten year old kids normally spout whatever language they care to, any adult who challenges is mocked or worse….

Too late

Again this is not my opinion, this is just what is.

My opinion on it is that, it is, unfortunately, a lack of discipline, (in some cases judiciously physically applied, early enough) along with a youth first culture (children’s rights?)that is one of the foundations for the problems western societies are in today….

Now ac-before you comment, reply and I sincerely hope you do, it will help you develop the foundations of your arguments if you read some of my previous work to get a flavor for who I am (as I did with you before writing this reply turned post). I will leave suggestions in your reply box as well as a link to this post.

Thanks again ac-I do indeed hope ya stop by, and that you’ve enjoyed this post you inspired, please feel free to comment, that goes for any visitors supportive or otherwise, God Bless ya, seeking the truth is as honest a past time as claiming to have found it.

I don’t claim anything other than being dysfunctional. I jes my little dog speak, it’s up to you the reader to decide whats true

5 Responses to “Spanks for the Comment”

  1. Hey, thanks for the review (a first for my little blog).

    It’s a difficult subject to discuss, even just in terms of basic definitions. I floated the idea that children be afforded the same rights as adults but I think you interpreted that as some kind of ‘right on’ approach where children rule the house like mini Hitlers while mommy and daddy wonder why no one comes to visit anymore.

    That was not what I had in mind!

    You said:

    ‘You seem to be confusing discipline with just plain ol violence…yes yes I know what about reason, what about reasoning with the two year old? …/ … Reasoning with children, once they gain the ability to reason, is preferable to physical discipline.’

    And this is the crux of the matter. A parent uses violence because the parent feels s/he can’t reason with the small child or infant. But if the capacity and maturity to reason like a grown up is not yet developed in child then the acts of violence will (by definition) not be interpreted by the child through a process of reason.

    Instead the child will just feel fear, pain, anxiety, stress. The child will be traumatised by the parent who is the one person the child relies on for safety, comfort, protection and INSTRUCTION. Part of the trauma is not understanding WHY the violence is occurring.

    The parent might understand why the violence is occurring but the child will not (it hasn’t properly developed the ability to reason, remember). If you can’t reason with the child with your vastly superior language and reasoning skills then it’s a failure on your part, not the child’s.

    If YOU accept that reasonable negotiation is always preferable to violence, then surely it’s safe to assume the child accepts the same thing (especially seeing as how it’s the one who is going to be on the receiving end of that violence) – BUT THIS ASSUMING THE CHILD UNDERSTANDS THE DEAL. Therefore it’s safe to assume if you find yourself beating your child and it is crying that is because the child did NOT understand the deal. Either you didn’t explain it properly or the child was incapable of understanding the reasoning or remembering. It is a child and not an adult after all. By your own logic, however you look at it the parent using violence has failed somehow.

    And so the child being beaten – lacking in reason and understanding – just learns to associate the parent with traumatic acts of violence. The child feels fear and anxiety in the presence of the parent (it’s VERY hard even for grown ups to think reasonably when we are fearful or anxious). This fear/ anxiety around the parent is in conflict with the natural need to feel safe, comforted, protected by the parent. This conflict and confusion further inhibits the development of reason in the child.

    I’m sure you’re aware of how many months and years it takes to develop computer software. A small child (and their growing brain) is a bit like beta software full of bugs and prone to crashing from time to time. When beta software crashes the correct procedure is to calmly save the crash log, find the problem and fix the code. At no point do beta testers and programmers hit their computers or shout at them. Yet when a small child ‘crashes’ (so to speak) we seem to think it’s a good idea to hit them? Sorry but that’s just totally stupid – it no different to hitting a computer or trying to ‘drive the demons’ out of someone with a migraine.

    So anyway, over time, as the child is pushed further and further away from reason (and thus inhibiting the capacity for reasoning between parent and child) the parent gets more and more exasperated and uses more violence against the child. Eventually the child learns to just submit to (the threat of) violence. Now the pattern is established and violence or threat of violence (AKA ‘authority’) has become the method by which child and parent relate. Reason which never developed properly anyway is no longer needed.

    The child is now ‘broken’ like a wild horse, it’s brain is damaged for life (more on this in a moment) and for the rest of its adult life it will fear authority (such as governments) and be submissive to it – or perhaps try to rebel against it. By the same token this person will often act in an authoritarian manner towards anyone they perceive as having less authority than themselves – such as employees, spouses and eventually their own children.

    Thus the cycle repeats.

    So the main point here is that children – particularly infants – learn just about everything from their parents. You said it yourself,

    “Reasoning with children, once they gain the ability to reason…”

    Don’t you see? – you have it completely the wrong way round!! That’s like saying “Speaking with children, once they gain the ability to speak….”

    You don’t reason with children once they gain the ability to reason – you reason with children so that they CAN gain the ability to reason.

    Let me use learning to walk as an example (learning to speak would be another example). Walking is something the small child learns from its parents. The most important aspect of this learning process is watching their parents walk about and desiring the ability to walk for themselves.

    And so if you never walk in front of your child (you just crawl about on your belly like they do) and if you never encourage walking (‘sell the benefits of walking’ as it were) the child will never learn to walk, it won’t even THINK to learn to walk. It wont know what walking is. And without the practice and exercise it will become both physically and mentally disabled (as far as walking is concerned). After all, walking requires a physical development of the brain (through exercising it) as much as it requires physical development of the legs (through exercising them) – the brain and legs form a ‘unit’ called: the ability to walk.

    Reason works the same way. The capacity to reason is also something small children must learn from their parents, and again, the biggest factors are copying their parents and the wanting to be able to reason. The parents need to act reasonably around the child as well as engage in reasoning with the child. This must include ‘selling the benefits’ of reasoning to the child ie offer encouragement. Then the child will learn to reason.

    If you hit your child before it can reason (a totally unreasonable thing to do!) it will never learn how to reason properly. It WILL learn all about violence and obeying authority though. This is not exactly rocket science.

    Infancy and early childhood is the time when the brain is developing and the capacity to reason needs to be ‘hardwired in’ in order for it to function optimally throughout life. If the child is beaten the brain simply will not develop high reasoning capacity. Instead the child will just learn how to submit to violence, and how to be obedient to authority (or perhaps try to become a violent authority figure itself). This ‘respect for authority (AKA violence)’ is not the same thing as the capacity to reason, or being ‘well behaved’. Not by a long shot – although many people confuse the two. It is a form of ‘training’ though, albeit a damaging and largely irreversible one.

    The reason centres of the frontal cortex of the brain actually fail to mature properly in children who are beaten or threatened or otherwise traumatised, particularly at a very young age. Likewise their ‘fight or flight’ centres become over developed. The two together combine to make a character type we are all familiar with…

    This is all proven through scientific observation BTW, it’s all very well documented – as are the studies which show the adverse effects in later life experienced by children who were beaten as children. Overall shorter life expectancy, prone to mood disorders, depression, alcoholism, smoking, drug addiction, violence, panic attacks, anxiety, stress…. you name it.

    Demanding reasonable behaviour from a young child and then beating it or threatening it with violence in the meantime is like demanding a loaf of bread from a bowl of flour and water on the kitchen table and then beating it or threatening it with violence in the meantime.

    It’s OUR job as a parent to be an example of reason for the child to copy, and to encourage reasonable behaviour – and to show how reasoning works and is preferable. Hitting the child teaches them the opposite – it just says “reasoning doesn’t work, violence is now being used instead”.

    This has NOTHING to do with pandering to a child’s every whim. That is not reasonable behaviour either!!! The pampered child will just grow up thinking it is god – a delusion which won’t serve it well in later years! Hell no.

    And please do not assume that just because I condemn violence against children I must therefore support a bunch of idiotic hippy dippy child rearing methods.

    You asked (rhetorically…):

    “Are young men less violent and out of control than they were say 50 or 60 years ago (during the hey day of white male cultural domination) or more out of control and violent?”

    Yes they are. Less violent anyway. Hey, *everyone* is out of control! Society is totally fucked up (I’m not blind!). But violent crime specifically is waaaaaay down statistically speaking. This is mostly because beating is a little less prevalent and extreme.

    The mass media, the police and political people like to hype up violent crimes because they like to keep everyone fearful (for votes, funding, keep us indoors watching TV and so on) but apart from government welfare disaster hot spots (inner cities and so on) violence in the ‘West’ is incredibly low historically speaking.

    Finally, as I mentioned in another comment in my original post, the kinds of people who most fiercely defend violence (or threats of violence) towards children are usually the people who suffered violence (or threats of violence) themselves.

    But have you ever wondered if the very fact that you consider violence acceptable, and even preferable, might be a sign of the damage which you suffered as a result of your own childhood? It’s hard to phrase that question in a way which doesn’t sound like a mean personal attack. It’s nothing personal. We’re ALL damaged by our childhoods in whatever ways – those who can’t admit it are probably the most damaged of all!

    But try to just imagine being a small child again – ignorant of the stresses and pressures which adults face in the modern life and seeing the whole world revolving around them – as all small children do…. If the parent hits the child that betrayal of trust at such a young age is gonna be felt pretty deep. When we are young EVERYTHING is felt so much more intensely – we’ve got so few other experiences to dilute it with.

    I mean, if you found out tomorrow that your wife/ girlfriend had been cheating on you for five years that would be a major betrayal of trust, a major insult, a major headfuck to deal with even as an ADULT full of experiences to give it all some perspective. So being HIT by your PARENTS (before you can even reason things out properly) when you depend on them for literally everything including your physical/ emotional safety and protection is going to feel like a major betrayal, a major anxiety and majorly traumatic event. Like the girlfriend leaving, only x1000 more intense and at a time when your brain is still developing….

    I mean come on! Let’s just give them a break and not hit them 🙂

    ps Please do check the web for the various studies if you don’t believe me.

  2. John Haslett Says:

    It’s nice to see that the morons out there are leaving you messages too. I finally figured out that arguing with or attempting to educate these fools is just a waste of my time. They only want to hear what they have to say and really don’t pay any attention to our replies, good or bad. Screw em.

    • “…I finally figured out that arguing with or attempting to educate these fools is just a waste of my time….”

      I found a good video series (in 4 parts) which outlines the evidence of many scientific studies showing how hitting children is physically damaging to the development of the brain and thus the long term prospects of the child in later life.

      You mentioned the difficulty of ‘attempting to educate these fools’ saying that it was a ‘waste of my time’.

      May I ask you a question?

      When, in the past, you have tried to ‘educate these fools’ about the benefits of hitting children have you ever supplied them with either of the following to support your case?

      – scientific evidence
      – reasoned arguments

      Do you actually have any scientific evidence or reasoned arguments to support the benefits of hitting children?

      Yes or no?

    • John, it actually is quite fun and a healthy past time (keeps me from fighting with the wife lol). The problem is in general it is too easy. His comment reply to you just shows that he still doesn’t get it lol.

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